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	<title>Comments on: To them that hath &#8230; a fifth poverty trap for Africa?</title>
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	<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084</link>
	<description>Thoughts on development and beyond</description>
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		<title>By: Jane Colman</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-10996</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Colman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-10996</guid>
		<description>Have you read the book &quot;Confessions of the Economic Hit Man&quot; and the &quot;Confessions of the economic Hit Man&quot;  by John Perkins? also A game as old as Empire by Steven Hiatt. Perhaps you may want to watch him if you have not done so. You can watch him in the following websites.I will like what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GhXsx7-Rs&amp;feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8&amp;feature=related</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you read the book &#8220;Confessions of the Economic Hit Man&#8221; and the &#8220;Confessions of the economic Hit Man&#8221;  by John Perkins? also A game as old as Empire by Steven Hiatt. Perhaps you may want to watch him if you have not done so. You can watch him in the following websites.I will like what you think.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GhXsx7-Rs&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GhXsx7-Rs&#038;feature=related</a><br />
<span style="text-align:center; display: block;"><a href="http://www.owen.org/blog/3084"><img src="http://img.youtube.com/vi/yTbdnNgqfs8/2.jpg" alt="" /></a></span></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5476</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5476</guid>
		<description>Good post, good comments.  Let&#039;s call unfair rules a barrier rather than a trap.  Or some new term, not laden with economics jargon.
I wouldn&#039;t have topped the list of unfair rules with TRIPS.  Ag subsidies and quotas would have been at the top of my list given the importance of ag to growth and income in Africa and how expensive and misguided some of those programs are (e.g. sugar in the U.S.).   

If you are cataloging unfair rules, I think we should also look at the rules involved in the delivery of aid.  The contracting, reporting, and fiduciary requirements of virtually all major donors effectively exclude small commercial or nonprofit organizations from being the primary recipients and implementers of aid programs. Governments are the only local organization able to meet some of these donor requirements, but holding host country governments accountable is difficult to say the least.   These rules explain why, in spite of significant increases in aid to Africa, organizations that have grown the most are not African, but US based or Europe based consulting firms, non profits, and charities that are able to adhere to these rules while delivering the aid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, good comments.  Let&#8217;s call unfair rules a barrier rather than a trap.  Or some new term, not laden with economics jargon.<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t have topped the list of unfair rules with TRIPS.  Ag subsidies and quotas would have been at the top of my list given the importance of ag to growth and income in Africa and how expensive and misguided some of those programs are (e.g. sugar in the U.S.).   </p>
<p>If you are cataloging unfair rules, I think we should also look at the rules involved in the delivery of aid.  The contracting, reporting, and fiduciary requirements of virtually all major donors effectively exclude small commercial or nonprofit organizations from being the primary recipients and implementers of aid programs. Governments are the only local organization able to meet some of these donor requirements, but holding host country governments accountable is difficult to say the least.   These rules explain why, in spite of significant increases in aid to Africa, organizations that have grown the most are not African, but US based or Europe based consulting firms, non profits, and charities that are able to adhere to these rules while delivering the aid.</p>
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		<title>By: Links I Liked &#171; The Everyday Idealist</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5474</link>
		<dc:creator>Links I Liked &#171; The Everyday Idealist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5474</guid>
		<description>[...] A Fifth Poverty Trap for Africa? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Fifth Poverty Trap for Africa? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5466</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5466</guid>
		<description>China did agriculture first. Any country that doesn&#039;t deregulate agriculture first ain&#039;t gonna do it.

In Africa, in most parts, at least, agriculture is 50% or more of the economy. Lifting the State off 50% or more of the economy is important, whatever else we say about race, tribes, IP or industrialisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China did agriculture first. Any country that doesn&#8217;t deregulate agriculture first ain&#8217;t gonna do it.</p>
<p>In Africa, in most parts, at least, agriculture is 50% or more of the economy. Lifting the State off 50% or more of the economy is important, whatever else we say about race, tribes, IP or industrialisation.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5465</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5465</guid>
		<description>I think the China example is quite an interesting one.  At the risk of grossly over-simplifying things, I think there&#039;s a few important factors worth noting about the reasons for China&#039;s relative success in reducing poverty.

1. It took steps to internally liberalise, and later it became more integrated into the global economy.  I think it&#039;s a myth that China&#039; success is a result of integration into the world economy, rather development (and lots of state support) preceeded the entry into the global economy.

2. Tricky one this - but the fact that China is 90% one ethnic group (Han) is surely important.  As a result, there has been relatively little internal ethnic conflict - with the exception of the Tibetan and Uighur populations in the west.

3. China was not colonised by western powers in the same way that Africa was.  As a result, it has been less influenced by the west.  Instead, the country has developed in a Chinese way.

International rules are certainly unfair on African countries.  I think the China took the long term view and only joined the international system when it felt the rules worked for it.  China&#039;s size meant it had that luxury.  Sadly, African countries don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the China example is quite an interesting one.  At the risk of grossly over-simplifying things, I think there&#8217;s a few important factors worth noting about the reasons for China&#8217;s relative success in reducing poverty.</p>
<p>1. It took steps to internally liberalise, and later it became more integrated into the global economy.  I think it&#8217;s a myth that China&#8217; success is a result of integration into the world economy, rather development (and lots of state support) preceeded the entry into the global economy.</p>
<p>2. Tricky one this &#8211; but the fact that China is 90% one ethnic group (Han) is surely important.  As a result, there has been relatively little internal ethnic conflict &#8211; with the exception of the Tibetan and Uighur populations in the west.</p>
<p>3. China was not colonised by western powers in the same way that Africa was.  As a result, it has been less influenced by the west.  Instead, the country has developed in a Chinese way.</p>
<p>International rules are certainly unfair on African countries.  I think the China took the long term view and only joined the international system when it felt the rules worked for it.  China&#8217;s size meant it had that luxury.  Sadly, African countries don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5463</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5463</guid>
		<description>&quot;There is a myriad of complicated rules and institutions that affect a huge swathe of economic and political life. &quot;

As Adam says, funny how old ideas come around. That&#039;s effectively &quot;regulation srtangles growth&quot;.....and as proponents of that like me point out, it strangles the growth of the small and the new businesses that cannot afford it much more than it does the large and established who can absorb it.

It&#039;s just that we who propose it as an obvious point think it happens in hte rich countries as well as the porr: the solution being simply to have less such regulation.
&lt;em&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Owen replies:&lt;/strong&gt;

Tim: You make a good point. Some such regulation serves the rich and politically powerful in society, at the expense of the poor.  Most trade restrictions, for example, fall into this category.  

I was musing about this the other day when wanting to get a taxi from the airport in a country in which normal licenced cabs which people take to the airport are required to return to town empty because they are not &quot;licensed&quot; to pick up at the airport, while at the same time arriving passengers have to queue up for ages waiting for an &quot;airport taxi&quot; to arrive.

That does not mean that all regulations are bad, of course.  I imagine you are in favour of requirements that weights and measures are accurate, and I am in favour of government intervention in the case of big externalities (such as limits to pollution).   I suspect I may be more in favour than you of regulations to protect the rights of workers, and I suspect you may be more in favour than me of regulations to create and protect intellectual property rights (though forgive me for making assumptions about your views).   We can all argue about where the boundary should be drawn.

But within nation states, in which political power is only partly distributed according to wealth, the poor have at least some opportunities to resist the rules and regulations imposed upon them by rent-seekers and monopolists.  It is no coincidence that the Corn Laws were repealed soon after the 1832 Reform Act which extended the vote in the United Kingdom.   Internationally, however, there is no such opportunity. The world&#039;s poor have no way to overturn the regulations imposed upon them by rent-seekers of the rich world.  This means we need more effective systems of global governance which give better political representation to the interests of the poor.

Owen&lt;/em&gt;





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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There is a myriad of complicated rules and institutions that affect a huge swathe of economic and political life. &#8221;</p>
<p>As Adam says, funny how old ideas come around. That&#8217;s effectively &#8220;regulation srtangles growth&#8221;&#8230;..and as proponents of that like me point out, it strangles the growth of the small and the new businesses that cannot afford it much more than it does the large and established who can absorb it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just that we who propose it as an obvious point think it happens in hte rich countries as well as the porr: the solution being simply to have less such regulation.<br />
<em><br />
<strong>Owen replies:</strong></p>
<p>Tim: You make a good point. Some such regulation serves the rich and politically powerful in society, at the expense of the poor.  Most trade restrictions, for example, fall into this category.  </p>
<p>I was musing about this the other day when wanting to get a taxi from the airport in a country in which normal licenced cabs which people take to the airport are required to return to town empty because they are not &#8220;licensed&#8221; to pick up at the airport, while at the same time arriving passengers have to queue up for ages waiting for an &#8220;airport taxi&#8221; to arrive.</p>
<p>That does not mean that all regulations are bad, of course.  I imagine you are in favour of requirements that weights and measures are accurate, and I am in favour of government intervention in the case of big externalities (such as limits to pollution).   I suspect I may be more in favour than you of regulations to protect the rights of workers, and I suspect you may be more in favour than me of regulations to create and protect intellectual property rights (though forgive me for making assumptions about your views).   We can all argue about where the boundary should be drawn.</p>
<p>But within nation states, in which political power is only partly distributed according to wealth, the poor have at least some opportunities to resist the rules and regulations imposed upon them by rent-seekers and monopolists.  It is no coincidence that the Corn Laws were repealed soon after the 1832 Reform Act which extended the vote in the United Kingdom.   Internationally, however, there is no such opportunity. The world&#8217;s poor have no way to overturn the regulations imposed upon them by rent-seekers of the rich world.  This means we need more effective systems of global governance which give better political representation to the interests of the poor.</p>
<p>Owen</em></p>
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		<title>By: Alan Hudson</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5458</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Hudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5458</guid>
		<description>People/countries make their own history but not under circumstances (including rules) of their own choosing.

Karl Marx, more or less

The challenge, I think, is to link the appreciation that political economy matters at a national level to the appreciation that political economy matters at a global and international level.

Borders do matter and make a difference, but global political economy (and resulting governance arrangements at that level), does shape national political economies (and resulting governance options and arrangements at that level). (and vice-versa if the country is big and powerful). Such are the realities and challenges of multi-level governance for a capitalism that goes far beyond - and therefore takes advantage of - borders.

... which is one of the reasons (shameless plug) why my web-site www.alanhudson.info is called &quot;beyond the borders&quot; (I am annoyed that CNN now use the strap-line &quot;beyond borders&quot;, but what can you do!)

&lt;em&gt;Alan - thanks.  I agree. I am interested in the strange dichotomy that most of us believe that it is a role of the nation state to limit and try to reverse the inequalities and divergence caused by capitalism between people within a nation state, but that many people do not accept the need for an international polity to do that between countries. &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People/countries make their own history but not under circumstances (including rules) of their own choosing.</p>
<p>Karl Marx, more or less</p>
<p>The challenge, I think, is to link the appreciation that political economy matters at a national level to the appreciation that political economy matters at a global and international level.</p>
<p>Borders do matter and make a difference, but global political economy (and resulting governance arrangements at that level), does shape national political economies (and resulting governance options and arrangements at that level). (and vice-versa if the country is big and powerful). Such are the realities and challenges of multi-level governance for a capitalism that goes far beyond &#8211; and therefore takes advantage of &#8211; borders.</p>
<p>&#8230; which is one of the reasons (shameless plug) why my web-site <a href="http://www.alanhudson.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.alanhudson.info</a> is called &#8220;beyond the borders&#8221; (I am annoyed that CNN now use the strap-line &#8220;beyond borders&#8221;, but what can you do!)</p>
<p><em>Alan &#8211; thanks.  I agree. I am interested in the strange dichotomy that most of us believe that it is a role of the nation state to limit and try to reverse the inequalities and divergence caused by capitalism between people within a nation state, but that many people do not accept the need for an international polity to do that between countries. </em></p>
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		<title>By: Jane Reitsma</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5454</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Reitsma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5454</guid>
		<description>We really need to work on changing the attitude and perspective of the global &quot;rich.&quot; Secretary of State Hilary Clinton&#039;s recent speech (quotation below) demonstrates we still have a long way to go... why does she think Americans need to project their &quot;values and leadership&quot; in the world? Its this type of attitude that helps reinforce the &quot;unfair rules&quot; trap:

&quot;The challenges we face are numerous. So we must be selective and strategic about where and how we get involved. But whether it&#039;s to improve long-term security in places torn apart by conflict, like Afghanistan, or to further progress in countries that are on their way to becoming regional anchors of stability, like Tanzania, we pursue development for the same reasons: to improve lives, fight poverty, expand rights and opportunities, strengthen communities, and secure democratic institutions and governance; and in doing so, advance global stability, improve our own security, and project our values and leadership in the world.&quot;

(http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/06/hillary_clinton_on_development_in_the_21st_century)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We really need to work on changing the attitude and perspective of the global &#8220;rich.&#8221; Secretary of State Hilary Clinton&#8217;s recent speech (quotation below) demonstrates we still have a long way to go&#8230; why does she think Americans need to project their &#8220;values and leadership&#8221; in the world? Its this type of attitude that helps reinforce the &#8220;unfair rules&#8221; trap:</p>
<p>&#8220;The challenges we face are numerous. So we must be selective and strategic about where and how we get involved. But whether it&#8217;s to improve long-term security in places torn apart by conflict, like Afghanistan, or to further progress in countries that are on their way to becoming regional anchors of stability, like Tanzania, we pursue development for the same reasons: to improve lives, fight poverty, expand rights and opportunities, strengthen communities, and secure democratic institutions and governance; and in doing so, advance global stability, improve our own security, and project our values and leadership in the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>(<a href="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/06/hillary_clinton_on_development_in_the_21st_century" rel="nofollow">http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/06/hillary_clinton_on_development_in_the_21st_century</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5452</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5452</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s funny how ideas come around. This of course is one of the fundamental tenets of the old-school dependency theory. It&#039;s got a point, of course.

In a broader sense I&#039;m not sure how useful it is looking at the problems facing Africa as a finite number of fixed &#039;traps&#039; (not least because, as you show Owen, it&#039;s not beyond the realms of possibility to add to them).

Decent economic analysis mixed with a much greater focus on the political economy of particular situations is where it&#039;s at. I&#039;m just yet to be convinced the &#039;trap&#039; narrative is useful for more than selling books.

An example: China was marginalised, colonised and abused for at least 100 years. It&#039;s possible to place this in the box of a &#039;trap&#039;. Their solution was to have a Communist revolution, then put in place an agrarian strategy that, to be generous, had its ups and downs, but one offshoot was that when they came to implement gradual economic reform they had institutions in place which, whether through luck or judgement, could drive staggering levels of capital accumulation and growth. Would a &#039;trap&#039; narrative really have helped diagnose this? 

And even if it could, we probably wouldn&#039;t take too kindly to suggesting countries have Maoist revolutions...

&lt;em&gt;Adam: you make a good point.  The word &quot;trap&quot; is not very helpful (except, as you say, for selling books).  I certainly don&#039;t want to imply that this is a situation from which African can never extract themselves.  But I do think there is a vicious circle which makes it harder for poor countries to extricate themselves from their situation because their political weakness makes it hard to shift the rules.   &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny how ideas come around. This of course is one of the fundamental tenets of the old-school dependency theory. It&#8217;s got a point, of course.</p>
<p>In a broader sense I&#8217;m not sure how useful it is looking at the problems facing Africa as a finite number of fixed &#8216;traps&#8217; (not least because, as you show Owen, it&#8217;s not beyond the realms of possibility to add to them).</p>
<p>Decent economic analysis mixed with a much greater focus on the political economy of particular situations is where it&#8217;s at. I&#8217;m just yet to be convinced the &#8216;trap&#8217; narrative is useful for more than selling books.</p>
<p>An example: China was marginalised, colonised and abused for at least 100 years. It&#8217;s possible to place this in the box of a &#8216;trap&#8217;. Their solution was to have a Communist revolution, then put in place an agrarian strategy that, to be generous, had its ups and downs, but one offshoot was that when they came to implement gradual economic reform they had institutions in place which, whether through luck or judgement, could drive staggering levels of capital accumulation and growth. Would a &#8216;trap&#8217; narrative really have helped diagnose this? </p>
<p>And even if it could, we probably wouldn&#8217;t take too kindly to suggesting countries have Maoist revolutions&#8230;</p>
<p><em>Adam: you make a good point.  The word &#8220;trap&#8221; is not very helpful (except, as you say, for selling books).  I certainly don&#8217;t want to imply that this is a situation from which African can never extract themselves.  But I do think there is a vicious circle which makes it harder for poor countries to extricate themselves from their situation because their political weakness makes it hard to shift the rules.   </em></p>
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		<title>By: Jenny Stefanotti</title>
		<link>http://www.owen.org/blog/3084/comment-page-1#comment-5444</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny Stefanotti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.owen.org/?p=3084#comment-5444</guid>
		<description>Bravo.  Well put Owen.  As useful as it is conceptually to use economic theory to think through traps, the political economic complexity is where the real work is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo.  Well put Owen.  As useful as it is conceptually to use economic theory to think through traps, the political economic complexity is where the real work is.</p>
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